tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post3355796155179841155..comments2023-09-11T17:58:13.764-04:00Comments on The Rebbetzin's Husband: Rabbi SignsThe Rebbetzin's Husbandhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14977193945074906534noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-6122392797380281682012-08-12T11:07:45.883-04:002012-08-12T11:07:45.883-04:00In that very Siman (166), the Mechaber brings both...In that very Siman (166), the Mechaber brings both de'ot concerning talking between washing and HaMotzi and concludes that it is better to be careful not to speak. See Mishna Berura's qualifiers.Shmuelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08623549507370220071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-27967528216418172202012-08-11T23:08:26.458-04:002012-08-11T23:08:26.458-04:00R' Micha-
I hear it. Perhaps "Would it b...R' Micha- <br />I hear it. Perhaps "Would it be possible to speak about this later?" would be better.The Rebbetzin's Husbandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14977193945074906534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-91421009469622033132012-08-11T22:01:51.432-04:002012-08-11T22:01:51.432-04:00I think "Can it wait?" is too often used...I think "Can it wait?" is too often used rhetorically, as an impatient "It can wait!" In writing, where there is no tone of voice, it's too likely to be taken the wrong way for my comfort.<br /><br />(How many arguments have you been in on the internet because the lack of tone of voice led to misunderstanding?)micha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-34704159715436181032012-08-10T17:07:20.139-04:002012-08-10T17:07:20.139-04:00It also deflects responsibility from the rabbi to ...It also deflects responsibility from the rabbi to the supplicant.<br /><br />With, "can it wait?", the supplicant is making the determination if it can or can't.<br />With, "it can wait", the rabbi is making the determination off the bat.Melechnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-83470959049786903342012-08-10T16:56:52.935-04:002012-08-10T16:56:52.935-04:00Joel-
Not universally; see Aruch haShulchan OC 66:...Joel-<br />Not universally; see Aruch haShulchan OC 66:4.The Rebbetzin's Husbandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14977193945074906534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-31546763356310448292012-08-10T16:51:56.956-04:002012-08-10T16:51:56.956-04:00mpnei hakavod - interesting- I always thought that...mpnei hakavod - interesting- I always thought that it was a given that the person didn't realize you were in the middle of davening. You think it's OK lchatchila?<br />KT<br />Joel RichAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-24986092746464414232012-08-10T16:11:58.596-04:002012-08-10T16:11:58.596-04:00Anonymous-
I'd be more comfortable with a sign...Anonymous-<br />I'd be more comfortable with a sign asking, "Can it wait?" That leaves them to make the judgment...The Rebbetzin's Husbandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14977193945074906534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-35183413432523001332012-08-10T14:31:21.231-04:002012-08-10T14:31:21.231-04:00Where in shulchan aruch does it say you can't ...Where in shulchan aruch does it say you can't talk between washing and hamotzi?<br /><br />[What it DOES say, at least in the Rama, is not to wait the time to walk 22 amot. Which is ironic].Melechnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-77262268891300978612012-08-10T14:27:45.900-04:002012-08-10T14:27:45.900-04:00oh. Gotcha.oh. Gotcha.Melechnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-35771438643531998952012-08-10T13:54:11.721-04:002012-08-10T13:54:11.721-04:00How about flashing "it can wait" to peop...How about flashing "it can wait" to people who come up front to converse about matters that can wait?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-31684426641481657702012-08-10T11:56:50.718-04:002012-08-10T11:56:50.718-04:00I was asserting that there were two concerns:
heis...I was asserting that there were two concerns:<br />heisekh hada'as and shinui hamatbeia'. WRT washing, there is only the first. WRT ASL communication, there is also only the first, unless we're discussing someone davening in an ASL translation.<br /><br />Speech that adds kavanah is a chassidishe kulah; at least some rabbeim were known to throw in a geshrei of "Tatte" (with a capital "T") or the like into their Shemoneh Esrei. This would pose an issue of shinui hamtbeia', but not heisekh hada'as.<br /><br />So it would seem that ASL to aid kavanah would be okay -- ASL isn't an interruption of a spoken matbeia', and since one is doing it in order to add kavanah, there is no issue of hesekh hadaas.<br /><br />Tangent: Which got me wondering.... Is someone who cannot speak but can sign chayav in tefillah? I know in general we do not give them the limitations of a cheiresh, but what about the chiyuvim? Can he be counted toward a minyan?<br /><br />That last clause raises a different question.micha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-54799596401618964342012-08-10T08:17:54.511-04:002012-08-10T08:17:54.511-04:00R' Micha-
The concern is היסח הדעת, which may ...R' Micha-<br />The concern is היסח הדעת, which may well apply to any divergence of the mind to communication. However, see MB 61:20 on movements which enhance kavvanah.The Rebbetzin's Husbandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14977193945074906534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-68504220526172876802012-08-10T08:14:54.740-04:002012-08-10T08:14:54.740-04:00Exactly my point, Melech.Exactly my point, Melech.The Rebbetzin's Husbandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14977193945074906534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-10471088488968837702012-08-10T08:14:28.227-04:002012-08-10T08:14:28.227-04:00What happened to greeting mipnei hakavod?What happened to greeting mipnei hakavod?The Rebbetzin's Husbandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14977193945074906534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-45130548776070289052012-08-09T22:23:53.666-04:002012-08-09T22:23:53.666-04:00Except he isn't citing the Aruch Hashulchan to...Except he isn't citing the Aruch Hashulchan to support waiting for the rabbi. He is citing the Aruch Hashulchan that the rabbi can allow the shatz to NOT wait. <br /><br />And in fact the Aruch Hashulchan is the rabbi should davka instruct the shatz not to wait if he, the rabbi, prolongs his tefillah. <br /><br />And further the Aruch Hashulchan is suggesting waiting for the rabbi not because of issues of kavod but simply because the rabbi is a good benchmark since mistama the rabbi will not be too quick or too long.Melechnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-13405642102121846652012-08-09T18:01:34.212-04:002012-08-09T18:01:34.212-04:00Except that by washing for haMotzi, one can use on...Except that by washing for haMotzi, one can use one or two words to indicate something that is necessary for the mitzvah; in the case of pre-written cards, communication would most likely be considered for the purpose of enhancing/smoothing along the tefilla process, without active cognition.<br /><br />ASL still requires a certain amount of intent that a prepared card doesn't...<br /><br />You can hand me your response Shabbos morning :)Shmuelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08623549507370220071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-35517108824172885912012-08-09T15:46:10.489-04:002012-08-09T15:46:10.489-04:00to ask people not to cause you to be mafsik?
KT
Jo...to ask people not to cause you to be mafsik?<br />KT<br />Joel RichAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-40662817371062744962012-08-09T15:44:36.795-04:002012-08-09T15:44:36.795-04:00Yes. I was in our host's shul once, and despit...Yes. I was in our host's shul once, and despite the kavod a great anvan like myself deserves, they didn't wait for me!<br /><br />(Yes, that was an entirely fictional attempt at humor.)<br /><br />My wife and I learned American Sign Language in order to be able to teach grammar to our son who has Downs and lacks the motor skills to talk clearly. He was able to learn a lot more language skills younger by not waiting for his speech to clear up.<br /><br />It created a problem for me when washing for hamotzi. It is WAY too tempting to want to say something to Mrs B, and realizing I can't talk, switch to signing. But it's no less a hefseq in ASL as in English. In either case, it's an off-topic discussion, a break in the chain of thought.<br /><br />(This might not be as true for talking during davening. That not only has issues of hesekh hadaas, a distraction from thought, but also of interrupting the coinage. Signing mid-tefillah only suffers from one of the two. English suffers from both.)<br /><br />Anyway, communication by card should be the same as ASL.micha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-44926170061129722072012-08-09T15:35:19.873-04:002012-08-09T15:35:19.873-04:00The Aruch haShulchan cited by Rav Shternbuch is go...The Aruch haShulchan cited by Rav Shternbuch is good enough for me. In any case, one could argue it's not a matter of kvod haTorah if they wait only for the Rav and not for talmidei chachamim who may be present.The Rebbetzin's Husbandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14977193945074906534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-28360068129038199172012-08-09T15:31:52.947-04:002012-08-09T15:31:52.947-04:00Cute story, and I like the idea of that baal tefil...Cute story, and I like the idea of that baal tefillah seat card; that could avoid uncomfortable situations.The Rebbetzin's Husbandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14977193945074906534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-49273894184964581332012-08-09T15:31:12.742-04:002012-08-09T15:31:12.742-04:00Is that halachically correct?Is that halachically correct?The Rebbetzin's Husbandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14977193945074906534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-13493626104126441192012-08-09T15:30:59.837-04:002012-08-09T15:30:59.837-04:00Melech-
I'm not talking about putting an end t...Melech-<br />I'm not talking about putting an end to talking, or to proactively approaching others. I'm talking about making an effort toward preserving a good atmosphere by using cards to communicate simple messages.The Rebbetzin's Husbandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14977193945074906534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-19964160645589907862012-08-09T14:27:49.950-04:002012-08-09T14:27:49.950-04:00And some say it's allowed.
Waiting for the Ra...And some say it's allowed.<br /><br />Waiting for the Rabbi and other Examples of Tirchah De'Tzibur <br /><br />http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/762470/Rabbi_Dovid_Gottlieb/Waiting_for_the_Rabbi_and_other_Examples_of_Tirchah_De%27TziburMelechnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-10734317798300053902012-08-09T13:00:44.272-04:002012-08-09T13:00:44.272-04:00You wrote that you have a card "Don't wai...You wrote that you have a card "Don't wait for me." I think some say you're not allowed to have the congregation go ahead of you (see Teshuvos VeHanhagos 1:116 http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20025&st=&pgnum=93)banoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-69089889498044994382012-08-09T09:42:19.672-04:002012-08-09T09:42:19.672-04:00I know of one short-on-space shtiebel that had a c...I know of one short-on-space shtiebel that had a card -- "this seat belongs to the baal tefilah" -- so that whoever got up for shachris would still have a place to sit for mussaf.<br /><br />A friend of mine handed out pesicha cards for high holidays; there was one instance where it looked like the pesicha was dozens of pages away, but due to the skipped liturgy in between, was a matter of minutes (seconds?) away. So he marked it with -- "watch out. It's sooner than you think."<br /><br />He related how years later he davened mincha just before his wedding -- he opened up his machzor and out fell a note: "watch out. It's sooner than you think!"Shalom Rosenfeldnoreply@blogger.com