tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post5674153322022843249..comments2023-09-11T17:58:13.764-04:00Comments on The Rebbetzin's Husband: Statement of Principles on the Place of Jews with a Homosexual Orientation in our CommunityThe Rebbetzin's Husbandhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14977193945074906534noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-871540137144081202010-07-28T13:17:19.116-04:002010-07-28T13:17:19.116-04:00Shadesof-
Thanks for [re-]commenting.
I think ther...Shadesof-<br />Thanks for [re-]commenting.<br />I think there is a specific reason for a statement regarding Jews who feel homosexual attraction. They are in a uniquely painful predicament, and to add insult to injury it is a predicament that gets little-to-no sympathy or understanding in many communities.<br /><br />David and Steg-<br />My hesitation was because I don't want my agreement on this document to be taken as endorsement of their stances on related issues. I could easily see it happening. That I signed despite this concern is a function of my strong feeling that such a document is necessary for the sake of many lives.<br /><br />Marc-<br />1. I've wanted such a document for years, but I imagine much of it came from the program at YU in December 2009. I was shown a draft of this document in March (which was when I signed on).<br /><br />2. The document does distinguish pretty clearly between desire and practice. I believe we must make such clear distinctions every step of the way.The Rebbetzin's Husbandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14977193945074906534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-10080383917374889422010-07-28T10:24:57.278-04:002010-07-28T10:24:57.278-04:00First of all — yishar koaḥ, Rav.
Second of all......First of all — yishar koaḥ, Rav.<br /><br />Second of all...<br /><br /><i>Without doubt, some of the people who signed the letter inhabit the left wing of the Orthodox spectrum. And I know that some serious talmidei chachamim declined to sign, lest they lend validity to those on the left. I thought about that, long and hard.</i><br /><br />Would you mind explaining/describing your thought process was about this issue?Steg (dos iz nit der šteg)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07694556690190505030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-59682244213799219042010-07-28T02:19:47.492-04:002010-07-28T02:19:47.492-04:001. Perhaps I haven't been reading the right b...1. Perhaps I haven't been reading the right blogs and newspapers, but why is there a sudden concern over such matters? What triggered this?<br /><br />2. How far can we go before such statements are construed as a tacit acceptance of homosexual behavior? It seems that while Halachically we distinguish between homosexual desire (whether genetic or otherwise) and homosexual behavior society at large does not. It is assumed that if a person has homosexual desires that are not voluntary he has the moral right to do so; otherwise the morality of the choice becomes more of politics than religion. Maybe an expert on Canon Law can correct me as far as Roman Catholics hold on this topic.<br /><br />Let me be clear that I am not in favor of any behavior towards homosexuals that is not halachically mandated. However, consider the mess the Conservative movement got into when they started dealing with the issue.<br /><br />Something I noticed in the statement is that nothing is said about whether homosexuals should be admitted to Smicha programs, be hired as pulpit Rabbis, etc.Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07338634487443993430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-46787553922249546232010-07-27T23:10:42.120-04:002010-07-27T23:10:42.120-04:00I found this line very striking:
"Without dou...I found this line very striking:<br />"Without doubt, some of the people who signed the letter inhabit the left wing of the Orthodox spectrum. And I know that some serious talmidei chachamim declined to sign, lest they lend validity to those on the left. I thought about that, long and hard."<br /><br />I have a lot of respect for the ideology of those on the "Orthodox Right" or the center of the center. I can't fathom not signing a document that you agree with because the other signers are on the "Orthodox Left." Could you explain a bit more your long and hard thoughts about this?Davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-12649063650039368272010-07-27T22:23:31.240-04:002010-07-27T22:23:31.240-04:00"Why did you delete that? You made good point..."Why did you delete that? You made good points."<br /><br />I realized it's a complicated topic, and I wanted to think it over more, but I appreciate your vote of confidence :)<br /><br />My point, rethought, is that perhaps there is not much to address on the public level as far as sensitivity for homosexuals per se, and it should be in the context of sensitivity for childless couples, or anyone with special needs. Why the need to have special discussion of this topic? For the homosexuals, all one would seemingly need is guidelines given by psychologists or rabbonim for dealing with sensitivity, rather than outpouring of public sympathy and major *discussion* back and forth.<br /><br />On the other hand, I would think some or much of the public interest actually *is* in either the topic of homosexuality or sexuality(R. Brody and Broyde's article in the Jewish Press seemed to recognize the larger context of sexuality as being a more important communal issue, and called homosexuality a "red herring", see link). How to deal with the any discussion for the latter two issues, in what forum, and for different demographics, is a separate subject, which of course deserves rabbinic input.<br /><br />http://www.jewishpress.com/pageroute.do/42996Shades of Grayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03029177164921795725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-76228160622671568972010-07-27T21:49:16.689-04:002010-07-27T21:49:16.689-04:00Michael-
Worth a shot, I'd think.
Tzipporah-
...Michael-<br />Worth a shot, I'd think.<br /><br />Tzipporah-<br />1. Only because that's the sort of brand I'd rather claim for myself, on my own terms, rather than have it leveled as an accusation.<br /><br />2. Hence my line about "of greater substance than..."<br /><br />3. It's a very long story...<br /><br />4. Thank you.<br /><br />Deleted comment-<br />Why did you delete that? You made good points.<br /><br />Neil-<br />Sad but true.The Rebbetzin's Husbandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14977193945074906534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-82463461288248869022010-07-27T17:58:42.446-04:002010-07-27T17:58:42.446-04:00FWIW, I saw your name right away when I read the l...FWIW, I saw your name right away when I read the letter. It's a well written document and I think that whatever wind is blowing now regarding it will eventually fade away with another issue de jour.Neil Harrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12797772082427806345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-67864632293264769432010-07-27T16:49:13.964-04:002010-07-27T16:49:13.964-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Shades of Grayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03029177164921795725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-44319095065860609912010-07-27T14:07:36.325-04:002010-07-27T14:07:36.325-04:00First, I'm sort of offended that you are so of...First, I'm sort of offended that you are so offended at being called left-wing.<br /><br />Second, really? your choice of HAT is an important part of your theology?? I know the various pieces of the frum uniform signal affiliation with different hashkafot, but this is extremely superficial, as an argument for your traditionalist values.<br /><br />Third, I haven't heard of Edah. What do they do that you objected to, and how does that signal that you're not a progressive?<br /><br />Thanks for signing. You are a man of integrity, and this is a really important step in Orthodox Judaism's relationship with other denominations, as well as to their own members.Tzipporahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08807511259582331073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-91022377374371863162010-07-26T15:53:05.462-04:002010-07-26T15:53:05.462-04:00Tricky, but perhaps possible. Because I think that...Tricky, but perhaps possible. Because I think that in discussing how the community should treat people who feel the attraction, I think it's inevitable that it will lead into a discussion of what the community can and can't accept with regard to acting on their feelings. And going down that path could lead to some explicit discussion.<br /><br />Have a great vacation!Michael Mirskynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-38310710086555917332010-07-26T11:00:47.152-04:002010-07-26T11:00:47.152-04:00DB-
Don't know if I'm the perfect person f...DB-<br />Don't know if I'm the perfect person for anything, but my email address is in my profile, please feel free to email me.<br /><br />Michael-<br />As I see it, we can have a forum to address the question of how the Jewish community deals with someone who feels the attraction, without that becoming a discussion about homosexuality itself. Do you think that's possible?The Rebbetzin's Husbandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14977193945074906534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-12346870243100588332010-07-25T23:43:39.746-04:002010-07-25T23:43:39.746-04:00"I would like to see some recognition that mo..."I would like to see some recognition that modesty does mandate we avoid creating public forums dedicated to discussing sexual matters, and I’d like to see a note promoting public forums dedicated to discussing the needs of Jews who are attracted to their own gender and are trying to live halachic lives."<br /><br />Unless I'm misunderstanding, doesn't the first part of this paragraph contradict the second? ie. I thought you were at first alluding to the recent very public session put on by some YU students, and suggesting such matters shouldn't be discussed in that manner in <b>public</b> sessions. But then you say that <b>public</b> forums for discussing what I think was part of what they discussed at that session SHOULD be promoted? Or are you saying public forums are OK, just don't get explicit?Michael Mirskynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-62147093117429719282010-07-25T21:23:02.254-04:002010-07-25T21:23:02.254-04:00Rabbi - PLEASE PLEASE EMAIL ME, maybe your the per...Rabbi - PLEASE PLEASE EMAIL ME, maybe your the perfect person to ask my question re: letter! bukin86 at gmail.com<br /><br />THANK YOU!DBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16806701543173511556noreply@blogger.com