tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post3718372689137522782..comments2023-09-11T17:58:13.764-04:00Comments on The Rebbetzin's Husband: Is Judaism a Cult?The Rebbetzin's Husbandhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14977193945074906534noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-21432962593651131752009-12-03T23:04:46.251-05:002009-12-03T23:04:46.251-05:00Joseph-
Thanks for your follow-up. I agree with mu...Joseph-<br />Thanks for your follow-up. I agree with much of what you say here, although I am not as certain that RSG's writings, as well as those of Rambam, were not products of need rather than ab initio ideology.<br /><br />Tzipporah-<br />Ah, there you are. Took you a couple of days!The Rebbetzin's Husbandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14977193945074906534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-90506682440633260712009-12-03T18:50:40.723-05:002009-12-03T18:50:40.723-05:00Sorry, Rabbi, there are far too many circles in wh...Sorry, Rabbi, there are far too many circles in which the kind of Judaism practiced is, in fact, a cult, from bans on certain questions to sanctification of leaders.Tzipporahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08807511259582331073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-18878471546042593772009-12-03T11:23:43.953-05:002009-12-03T11:23:43.953-05:00But that's my point. "Secular" arist...But that's my point. "Secular" aristocracy does not explain any of Rasag's, Rambam's, or tens of other rishonim and aharonim's incorporating the sciences and philosophies of their day; they regarded it as part of hokhmah, which was itself from G-d, and therefore a part of Torah (that is why we say such a berakhah when we see "secular" scholars). Just peruse through Rasag's Emunot ve-Deot, and you'll see huge numbers of citations from Tanakh on this point. I'm not denying that the need to engage new systems of thought prompted these works, but that need does not make these works a bedi'eved. Torah thrives and grows because of such challenges, and I would assume that these rabbanim truly believed in what they were writing. <br /> Incidentally, the case of pre-determined conclusions is the precise debate over Rambam's position that had the theory of the world's eternity been more convincing than the alternative, he'd re-interpret Bereshit against the grain. You can also take into account the debate over at his critique of reliance on tradition to determine reality. Can we generalize about Judaism at all given all of these debates, or do we have to differentiate between different kinds of Judaism? In any case, I'll read your second post.Josephnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-29482604774295824922009-12-02T23:20:55.528-05:002009-12-02T23:20:55.528-05:00Shorty-
Thanks; that's certainly a new angle o...Shorty-<br />Thanks; that's certainly a new angle on the whole issue.<br /><br />Joseph, Mississippi Fred-<br />Thanks for commenting. I agree that these texts were studied, albeit in the specific circumstances of דע מה שתשיב, involvement with secular aristocracy and beit din necessities - but these are all justifications which hardly address the breadth of popular inquiry.<br />More to the point: In my Part II, I get down to what I think is the real issue, the pre-determined exclusion of certain conclusions. Inquiry with guaranteed results or an "out of bounds" area is hardly inquiry at all.The Rebbetzin's Husbandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14977193945074906534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-83762909989561452592009-12-02T14:03:11.238-05:002009-12-02T14:03:11.238-05:00Just as any discussion of the Rambam's codific...Just as any discussion of the Rambam's codification of a prohibition on perusing works of idolatry must also include the fact that he himself read widely in such works, so too any discussion about Judaism's views on intellectual openness must also include what people actually did, as opposed to only the stridently negative things that were written.<br /><br />That said of course there are cult-like tendencies in religions.Mississippi Fred MacDowellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02734864605700159687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-45889383711745063102009-12-02T13:57:00.908-05:002009-12-02T13:57:00.908-05:00This is an interesting post. I would take the ques...This is an interesting post. I would take the question on a different level and go back to basics. You cite a number of texts that discourage certain questions, though it can be argued that rabbis themselves have dabbled with precisely those questions. The issue is, what is the basis for discouraging certain questions? It is because you may come to reject a dogma, or because you will simply become frustrated without an answer? Sifrei Yonah and Iyyov deal with the issue of theodicy, despite the Mishnah in Avot that says that we can't explain these things. And will shutting out discussion prevent heresy or encourage it by frustrating the questioner?<br /> I wonder if the discouragement of "learning" heresy is related to how and why it is done. I refer you to the work of Jose Faur's explanation of Rambam's understanding of the derash "ve-lo taturu aharei levavkhem - so minut - ve'aharei eineikhem - zo zenut." The connection between minut and zenut is what is stressed: heresy results from exploring questions without a full control of your passions: your conclusions in your quest will not be based on pure reason but will be clouded by your own uncontrolled impulses, which is what you are really after. But not all inquiry fits this category. Rambam forbade the study of idolatrous texts but allowed battei din to do the same so they could poskin properly in those cases. Rambam's exploration of Aristotle was not "secular" - Rambam included science as part of Torah! A contradiction is not automatically heresy.<br /> Clearly there are Jewish groups out there who assur inquiry because they are afraid of kefirah/the system falling. Others encourage inquiry. The question of whether Judaism, as an ideal form, is a cult (as you define it), would depend on how you interpret the purpose and scope of the forbidden/discouraged areas of inquiry.Josephnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-74328064509972518422009-12-02T12:29:52.944-05:002009-12-02T12:29:52.944-05:00First of all, Canadians (and i can say this becaus...First of all, Canadians (and i can say this because i am one) like to kvetch. A lot. If they moved away then they wouldn't have anything to kvetch about.<br /><br />Ok, cults. The term "cult" was used to describe deviations from the mainstream religious practices (roughly). So to say Judaism as a whole is "cultish" is a bit strong. There were rules set up in Judaism (like not studying about idol worship) because face it, humans are weak, and easily tempted. The more you study about something the more you may get involved in it. (or pulled away from something else).<br /><br />I think limiting studies of the "cosmos" is actually pretty smart. There are so many basic lessons to learn from the Patriarchs, which everyone skips for something "bigger". If they look to the skies so to speak, they can continue to feel small in comparison without guilt. But if one keeps their feet on the ground, they might have to actually look to their own behaviour with other people. Much harder to deal with. <br /><br />The usual two centsShortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05195198876287540850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-19667207598899594682009-12-02T08:20:45.796-05:002009-12-02T08:20:45.796-05:00R' Maroof-
Challenges to Tanach and Chazal, as...R' Maroof-<br />Challenges to Tanach and Chazal, as well as questioning among the neviim, are well-established. My point is on the challenging of the out-of-bounds areas. I hope to expand on this in my sequel post.The Rebbetzin's Husbandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14977193945074906534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-10018759215617802622009-12-02T08:18:26.596-05:002009-12-02T08:18:26.596-05:00Larry-
Thanks, but R' Aryeh Kaplan's views...Larry-<br />Thanks, but R' Aryeh Kaplan's views on this were not accepted in certain circles back then, and those same circles are the ones that reject those views today.<br />Please don't shoot the messenger - I am a fan of R' Kaplan - but this is my understanding. The opinions have not shifted, it's just that the voices have grown more strident.The Rebbetzin's Husbandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14977193945074906534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-48425420800766909272009-12-02T08:13:29.246-05:002009-12-02T08:13:29.246-05:00Fruma, R' Joshua-
Based on your comments, I th...Fruma, R' Joshua-<br />Based on your comments, I think I need to post a sequel. You have helped me clarify my thinking on this; I am most grateful. Sequel to come shortly, Gd-willing.The Rebbetzin's Husbandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14977193945074906534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-79119399376844543752009-12-01T23:37:06.342-05:002009-12-01T23:37:06.342-05:00Throughout my experience of Jewish education, ques...Throughout my experience of Jewish education, questioning - even of fundamentals - was encouraged, provided that it was motivated by a sincere desire to understand. <br /><br />But I would mention that there is a real difference between asking "what is above and what is below", which is moving beyond the limits of the human intellect, and asking whether or not we have reason to believe the Torah is true, which is a legitimate question to raise (even if you may choose to simply accept the truth of Torah as an axiom based on tradition).<br /><br />Moreover, at least in the circles in which I travel, asking very strong and strident questions on the Torah, Nach, Hazal, Rishonim and Aharonim was par for the course, as long as these questions were raised in the context of a respectful search for knowledge. And at times the questions were not resolved, we were left with "teiqu", yet no one was disenfranchised for asking. <br /><br />We must keep in mind that even the nevi'im were not afraid to challenge the devar Hashem when they couldn't make sense out of it, although their commitment to fulfilling it was a given, as you stated. The assumption was that Hashem's directives are intelligible and coherent and therefore worthy of study and analysis. This attitude distinguishes Judaism from a cult, since in the latter framework even exploratory questioning like this is perceived as an encroachment on the leader's authority.Rabbi Joshua Maroofhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12585369620887846940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-71353746453326240842009-12-01T15:42:03.036-05:002009-12-01T15:42:03.036-05:00Judaism certainly has aspects that can be consider...Judaism certainly has aspects that can be considered cultish. I worry about friends who are involved in communities in which asking questions is frowned upon.Jack Steinerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16625864271071630940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-10522130211758113462009-12-01T09:52:50.322-05:002009-12-01T09:52:50.322-05:0030 years ago Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan's works were a...30 years ago Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan's works were accepted as acceptable even by charedim. Much of what he has to say about the age of the Universe is exactly the same as Rabbi Slifkin says today.<br /><br />See <a href="http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2005/07/rabbi_aryeh_kap.html" rel="nofollow">Failed Messiah</a> for a summary of Kaplan's teaching.Larry Lennhoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06578073969473815180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-80738779347779885802009-11-30T19:45:04.876-05:002009-11-30T19:45:04.876-05:00Joel-
Indeed.
Larry-
Regarding the former example...Joel-<br />Indeed.<br /><br />Larry-<br />Regarding the former example: I'm not that old, but I am fairly certain, based on published works from the period, that the same circles that protest such thinking today did the same 30 years ago.<br /><br />Fruma-<br />With great respect, I must differ here. I use the word "traditional" in its most literal sense - following the path of Judaism's practitioners across the generations. You will not find anyone among Jewish sages and leaders, pre-Enlightenment, who presented Judaism as permitting, let alone encouraging, certain lines of questioning.The Rebbetzin's Husbandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14977193945074906534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-36946873715521622062009-11-30T18:04:15.732-05:002009-11-30T18:04:15.732-05:00I don't think you can make the statement about...I don't think you can make the statement about Judaism per se -- even traditional orthodox Judaism. After all, "traditional" is in the eye of the beholder, so to speak.<br /><br />Some groups of Jews insulate themselves from the rest of the world and discourage questions around certain topics, but others do not have an insular an existence -- and are still very traditional Jews.<br /><br />I think there's another difference with the limits of questioning: Jewish children (and adults) are encouraged to ask questions as they learn. Perhaps it's the way the questions are handled that makes a differenceFrumanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-2048011654233348532009-11-30T16:27:50.065-05:002009-11-30T16:27:50.065-05:00I don't see the distinction. 30 years ago you...I don't see the distinction. 30 years ago you could believe in an ancient Earth and in Hashem working through evolution - today many Jewish leaders insist that is heresy. What is that if not the cult leaders changing their views in order to protect the cult?<br /><br />Too many people think Chillul Hashem is caused by evil acts performed by Jews becoming known - simply performing the evil acts is not considered a Chillul Hashem. What is that but protecting the cult?Larry Lennhoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06578073969473815180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-40723198342521279932009-11-30T14:26:46.393-05:002009-11-30T14:26:46.393-05:00If it walks like a duck.....
IMHO the transmissio...If it walks like a duck.....<br /><br />IMHO the transmission in many circles is exactly what you articulated-we are afraid of being undermined , so why expose ourselves to any thoughts that might cause trouble.<br /><br />Trouble is you can't build the walls high enough.<br /><br /><br />KT<br />Joel RichAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-18116900663745534342009-11-30T13:35:44.851-05:002009-11-30T13:35:44.851-05:00Hi Isaac,
I believe that this is an important pra...Hi Isaac,<br /><br />I believe that this is an important practical difference; the systematic exclusion of irrelevant topics is far more appealing, to me, than the simple rejection of all that one fears.<br /><br />But in the end, I believe that the practical differences may not be as important as one's personal comfort with the system, as odd as that sounds.The Rebbetzin's Husbandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14977193945074906534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-65955309306141545892009-11-30T11:13:55.818-05:002009-11-30T11:13:55.818-05:00Although you reiterate that there's no practic...Although you reiterate that there's no practical difference between the closedmindedness of a cult system and that of an Emuna system, you seem to hint that there could be some practical distinction (nafka mina) when you suggest the example of a cult's high priest lecturing on a topic one day and refusing to talk about it the next. Are there, in fact, actual nafka minas, and if so, could you flesh out a little more what they might be?<br /><br />If not, what difference does it make what the underlying reason for the philosophical circumscription is? Whether or not we should feel good about it?Isaac Moseshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02233147336865587233noreply@blogger.com