tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post2014940877155503452..comments2023-09-11T17:58:13.764-04:00Comments on The Rebbetzin's Husband: Another Seat Change ScandalThe Rebbetzin's Husbandhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14977193945074906534noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-52102233063131124972015-08-11T12:19:01.794-04:002015-08-11T12:19:01.794-04:00funny no one has mentioned Sota 22b:
There are se...funny no one has mentioned Sota 22b:<br /><br />There are seven types of Pharisees... (3) the “bruised” Pharisee, who to avoid looking at a woman runs into walls...<br /><br />Nothing new under the sun(wing).<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-32829330396646915202015-08-06T16:44:10.283-04:002015-08-06T16:44:10.283-04:00There are only a couple of examples where addition...There are only a couple of examples where additional barriers to contact would actually help prevent unwanted contact.<br /><br />You could argue that some rules of yichud are useful, simply for sending out a red flap that certain situations could pose a risk. If the default is that a man will always make sure that he's not alone with a girl, then deviating from that would set off alarm bells.<br /><br />The other possibly useful rule would be refraining from most physical contact when it involves a position of trust. I've seen this in general society in some situations - for example, staff at a daycamp were advised that no physical contact was permitted with campers, period. (I think that was overkill, but understand the paranoia behind the rule.) A counselor, a rabbi, an employer, a teacher - these are all examples where someone could be intimidated by touch that slowly seems to cross the line. Law momhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01859590966207623757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-33653587170950222982015-08-05T15:55:51.853-04:002015-08-05T15:55:51.853-04:00Hi Law Mom,
1. The prohibition regarding a niddah...Hi Law Mom,<br /><br />1. The prohibition regarding a niddah, which applies whether married or single, is against sexual relations. However, I believe the “harchakah” prohibitions which ban other forms of contact, lest one engage in sexual relations, are specific to husband and wife. The prohibitions against contact – “shomer negiah” – are out of concern for spilling seed, as you mentioned, as well as concern for him taking advantage of her.<br /><br />2. I agree that these crimes are more likely to occur in private, but that is hardly a statement that they do not occur in public, with or without criminalization; see my previous reply.<br /><br />3. To answer your question re: what these rules add: They create an additional barrier to contact. It is not foolproof. And as you and other commenters have noted, this added barrier can also have negative consequences. But that is what the rules add, to my mind.<br />The Rebbetzin's Husbandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14977193945074906534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-48866326287933760782015-08-05T12:12:22.909-04:002015-08-05T12:12:22.909-04:00Any time that I've asked about or looked up th...Any time that I've asked about or looked up the source for the shomer negiah rule, I've been referred to the laws of niddah. Specifically, #161 and #175 on this version of Ramban's list of 613 mitzvot: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/756399/jewish/The-613-Commandments.htm<br /> <br />I'm not a rabbi, and am certainly open to learning more if there are different sources.<br /><br />Threats to sexual safety generally come from people who are known to the victim, and it's more common for abuse or assaults to take place in private. I'm not suggesting that Canada is a utopia where laws have magically made all problems disappear. I am suggesting that the current criminal laws make it clear that non-consensual physical contact is a crime, and that public attitudes are increasingly viewing it as a serious crime. That doesn't mean that everybody will follow the law. It does mean that sexual abuse and sexual assault is regarded as criminal and deviant behavior by the general public.<br /><br />Again, how do additional rules on consensual touch or accidental non-sexual contact provide any more protection than the existing rules against non-consensual touch? The whole issue with sexual violence is that the perpetrators don't follow the existing rules/laws, they target people close to them, they target those who are seen as vulnerable, and they hide what they do. In both general society and in the Jewish community, victims are often reluctant to come forward. The perpetrator may be in a position of trust, they may fear that they will not be believed, they may feel ashamed, they may fear an invasive investigation. To truly compare the effect of halacha on sexual safety, you would need a reliable way to gather data confidentially from women, in a setting where they felt comfortable enough to be honest.Law momhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01859590966207623757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-8882958568879153522015-08-04T19:38:46.666-04:002015-08-04T19:38:46.666-04:00Law Mom-
Thanks for clarifying, but:
1. On what ba...Law Mom-<br />Thanks for clarifying, but:<br />1. On what basis do you say that the laws against touching have anything to do with niddah? I agree that they are partly about spilling seed, but I believe they are also about her protection - and yes, that he would have an impulse to touch her in a sexual way.<br /><br />2. As I indicated in my previous response to you, this sort of inappropriate contact is common in this world, municipal law notwithstanding. To offer another resource: MacLeans (http://www.macleans.ca/work/what-canadians-say-about-workplace-sexual-harassment/) says that 28% of Canadians report having been sexually harassed at work. Municipal laws provide insufficient protection.<br /><br />3. I am not clear on why you say that municipal laws which are not observed provide safety, while halachah which is not observed does not provide safety? To my mind, both of them would provide safety if they were followed.<br /><br />4. And as with your previous closing web reference to the "Guard Your Eyes" blog, I again don't understand the relevance of your closing web reference, this time to Agudath Israel on child abuse. I didagree with their stand, but what does it have to do with the case at hand? <br /><br /><br />The Rebbetzin's Husbandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14977193945074906534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-19687196356389569992015-08-04T14:22:48.000-04:002015-08-04T14:22:48.000-04:00There are indeed laws within Judaism that do provi...There are indeed laws within Judaism that do provide protection. For example, halacha is very clear that a husband cannot force his wife to be intimate, which is something that Canadian law did not recognize until 1983.<br /><br />In your original post, you wrote: <br /><br />"In truth, separating men and women is simply a barrier against sexual impropriety - a woman might make the same request for a man to move.<br />Of course, society as a whole doesn't view sitting next to someone as a sexually charged situation - but society as a whole has an abysmal track record for sexual safety." <br /><br />I was pointing out that in this case, the halacha on avoiding touching someone of the opposite sex isn't primary about protecting women from non-consensual contact. The "sexual impropriety" in question relates to avoiding "approaching" a woman in niddah, and avoiding the temptation to spill seed.<br /><br />Since this was a case where it was the man who requested the seat change, what was the risk to the woman's sexual safety? Are you suggesting that he would have felt an uncontrollable urge to sexually assault her at her seat if he happened to have some accidental contact?<br /><br />Laws that exist in theory will always be different from how human beings act in the real world. This is true for both religious and criminal laws. You have suggested that in this case, the halacha regarding close contact in casual situations (ie. not contact for a romantic purpose) provides women with an increased amount of sexual safety. I don't see any objective proof for that claim. Someone who is willing to violate criminal law by committing a sexual assault might not be constrained by halacha either. I'm also concerned that there are other aspects of halacha that can have the effect of increasing the risk to safety. For example, the Agudath Israel's statement on the need to seek rabbinic approval prior to reporting suspected child abuse (http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2011/07/22/agudath-israel-statement-on-reporting-suspicions-of-child-abuse/) is problematic and can interfere with the proper reporting and investigation of child sexual abuse.Law momhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01859590966207623757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-60989985494137758942015-08-04T13:06:49.013-04:002015-08-04T13:06:49.013-04:00Law Mom-
I agree with you that "men who find...Law Mom-<br /><br />I agree with you that "men who find themselves in a constant struggle... may start to view womn primarily as sources of tempation to sin, rather than as human beings." I agree that this is a problem, and it is what I was referring to in my comment to Avi at 10:58 AM, above.<br /><br />But I find the rest of your comment difficult:<br />1. I would not claim to mindread the individual involved, but the law is indeed about sexual safety. And while it is true that the laws you cherry picked are not about sexual safety, other laws are, such as the license to execute a rapist who is caught in the act, and the <i>yichud</i> prohibition against being alone with someone of the opposite gender who is not your spouse.<br /><br />2. It is good that Canada has created laws in its own attempt to police sexual safety, but the track record isn't very good. See http://www.sexassault.ca/statistics.htm, for example. <br /><br />3. As far as the presumption of safety at her seat on a small commercial flight, I don't know why that should be true?<br /><br />4. While the words of the fellow in that forum post are appalling, I'm not sure why that's relevant? Surely you know I could bring thousands of posts that show appalling language from people who don't follow such rules?The Rebbetzin's Husbandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14977193945074906534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-68209698069243353272015-08-04T11:55:22.232-04:002015-08-04T11:55:22.232-04:00His request had absolutely nothing to do with wome...His request had absolutely nothing to do with women's sexual safety, period.<br /><br />Canadian society already has laws against physical contact without consent. Sexually assault is considered deviant and criminal behavior. Legally, the laws are becoming more stringent - the age of consent has been raised, the Supreme Court of Canada has made it clear that consent must be explicit and cannot be given by someone who is unconscious, and various professional bodies have clear policies that prohibit sexual relations in situations where there may be an abuse of trust (for example, a psychiatrist who sleeps with a patient will lose his or her license).<br /><br />The risk of a woman being sexually assaulted at her seat on a small commercial flight is remote.<br /><br />The halacha (Jewish law) addresses additional prohibitions, which are not related to safety:<br /><br />1. Leviticus 18:19 prohibits a man from coming near a woman in niddah to uncover her nakedness. The Rambam concludes that touching with sexual intent is included in this prohibition. There are others who rule more strictly and prohibit ALL touching, whether sexual or not.<br /><br />2. There is a separate commandment that prohibits men from "spilling seed". Since the temptation to masturbate is so strong, some advise men to avoid doing anything that could possibly lead to sexual desire.<br /><br />These additional prohibitions have nothing to do with protecting women from unwanted sexual contact or attention. In fact, men who find themselves in a constant struggle to avoid any sexual thoughts or masturbation may start to view women primarily as sources of temptation to sin, rather than as human beings. This leads to hate, not respect.<br /><br />While I certainly hope that this is an exception, I was appalled to read the words of a young, newly religious man who coped with sexual thoughts by calling his former girlfriend (who had been a young teen at the time) "whore" and "slut" in his head, and thinking of women as literally being pieces of meat. http://www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?topic=167.0Law momhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01859590966207623757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-80715403933828670952015-08-02T09:37:18.170-04:002015-08-02T09:37:18.170-04:00I see. Thanks.I see. Thanks.Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17813081199134138967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-38747637501057368162015-08-02T09:27:09.345-04:002015-08-02T09:27:09.345-04:00Joseph-
Indeed, that's the problem I was refer...Joseph-<br />Indeed, that's the problem I was referring to in my 10:58 AM response to Avi. Perhaps I should have included it in the post; I felt it was a separate point.The Rebbetzin's Husbandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14977193945074906534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-67152174843542305782015-08-02T05:53:50.068-04:002015-08-02T05:53:50.068-04:00R. Torzcyner, you are also assuming that repressin...R. Torzcyner, you are also assuming that repressing what is considered to be normal contact in general society (i.e. men's sitting next to women and other strictures) would help with sexual safety, rather than create a repressed environment in which the lack of outlets may make those problems worse and risks objectifying people as purely sexual. It's the law of unintended consequences. Whatever happened to the Golden Mean? I agree that Western society is hyper-sexualized, and that unbridled expressions of sexuality have created a situation in which people feel empowered to do things that decades ago would only be done behind closed doors. But I fail to see how inhibiting every-day human contact is going to help.Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17813081199134138967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-63089713661803339282015-07-31T10:11:32.161-04:002015-07-31T10:11:32.161-04:00Yannai-
That's not the law speaking; that'...Yannai-<br />That's not the law speaking; that's him speaking. See #1 in my original post.The Rebbetzin's Husbandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14977193945074906534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-67889891998571366962015-07-31T08:49:28.629-04:002015-07-31T08:49:28.629-04:00The guy who wants to avoid becoming a shooter coul...The guy who wants to avoid becoming a shooter could simply choose not to carry a gun (or walk around with his hands tied behind his back); instead he is insisting everyone else wear heavy body armour and stay out of his way.Yannai Segalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16208860797192410949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-60261967820217227222015-07-31T08:41:54.113-04:002015-07-31T08:41:54.113-04:00Garnel -
No, it's like saying that the prospec...Garnel -<br />No, it's like saying that the prospective shooter should not be allowed to carry a gun. Remember - the onus is on him.The Rebbetzin's Husbandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14977193945074906534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-14627584580024726602015-07-31T08:40:04.778-04:002015-07-31T08:40:04.778-04:00That's like saying that since I might get shot...That's like saying that since I might get shot at walking through downtown Detroit the cops should arrest me so as to avoid that situation.Mighty Garnel Ironhearthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09571194550300367249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-44399727090899385352015-07-31T00:41:49.987-04:002015-07-31T00:41:49.987-04:001. My point was that there are many ways to preven...1. My point was that there are many ways to prevent a woman from getting harassed that the woman is likely to find more unpleasant than the (possibility or even actual) harassment so achieving that goal is by no means a measure of success.<br /><br />2. Society objects to these standards, or at least the way they are reported, because it always comes off as leading to the sanctimonious (man) inconveniencing others in the name of his own high standards. In this case we're talking about a very short flight -- he couldn't put on a sleep mask and say tehillim to himself for an hour? I'm sure there is selection bias here -- I'll bet you in most cases there's a polite request, a friendly seat switch (or not), and no news story for people to comment on. Those that truly value this stricture are probably willing to pay for an upgrade to an easily tradable seat even if they cannot afford to buy a whole row.Yannai Segalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16208860797192410949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-68120118374247935732015-07-31T00:12:01.659-04:002015-07-31T00:12:01.659-04:00Getting off-topic but the means to catch a murdere...Getting off-topic but the means to catch a murderer have definitely outpaced the typical means to murder (very few murderers use high-tech sniper rifles or untraceable poisons, it's pretty much poison, physical attacks and short range weapons). Until very recently any competent murderer would leave nothing but circumstantial evidence. Mitchell and Web's caveman detective pretty much sums it up (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQjT3z0ti6U). That said the standard for conviction were lower and severity and speed of punishments likely higher (with no class privileges at play) but the rate of false convictions and pubic vigilantism were much higher too.<br /><br />I think that factors such as modern exposure of skin actually make little difference. The same type of guy who would catcall a girl in a short skirt was probably catcalling girls with visible ankles a hundred years ago. Unless you completely mask the face and make all women wear the same box-like uniform that completely hides body shape you are still going to be having the same type of guy ogling the pretty girls and the ones with nice figures.Yannai Segalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16208860797192410949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-75813837381974221082015-07-30T18:41:45.516-04:002015-07-30T18:41:45.516-04:00Very sorry to hear it; that's terrible. But R&...Very sorry to hear it; that's terrible. But R' Micha is correct regarding my assertion.The Rebbetzin's Husbandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14977193945074906534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-21193956699947735922015-07-30T18:37:03.788-04:002015-07-30T18:37:03.788-04:00You have my sympathy.
But R' Torczyner didn&#...You have my sympathy.<br /><br />But R' Torczyner didn't claim it doesn't happen in the Orthodox community, but that it happens far less often.<br /><br />And I didn't counter-claim that indeed this kind of sin does happen comparatively as often. Just that it's not producing a statistically better population. (But that holy few are truly inspiring, from the saintly rabbi to the 24x6 gemach volunteer!)<br /><br />What we are on a broad statistical level is a culture in which the miscreants are forced to find less public ways to harass people, so that yes, stories like yours happen -- but are indeed more rare than otherwise.micha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-48133579540519666032015-07-30T18:29:34.484-04:002015-07-30T18:29:34.484-04:00I was, without question deliberately, body-checked...I was, without question deliberately, body-checked off a sidewalk in Jerusalem by a "gentleman" wearing black-hat Orthodox garb (and although it is not my usual custom to do so at home, I was dressed in full accordance with Orthodox modesty guidelines including covered hair). Is this supposed to be an example of how much better I'd be treated in religious Jewish society than in American secular society?bratschegirlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-45861727414183393172015-07-30T18:08:58.247-04:002015-07-30T18:08:58.247-04:001. I don't see anyone here advocating locking ...1. I don't see anyone here advocating locking her in a basement?<br />2. The point, as stated above, was not to say that everyone should desire these standards - only that society's failure to recognize these standards for what they are is frustrating. Our world could learn something from these strictures.The Rebbetzin's Husbandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14977193945074906534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-22393898673805965562015-07-30T18:06:01.041-04:002015-07-30T18:06:01.041-04:00I'd disagree re: murder - The means of murder ...I'd disagree re: murder - The means of murder have grown powerfully, too.<br />Re: Harassment - Social attitudes and odds of being caught matter little to people who are caught up in an impulse, I think. I also think that the ease of access, as well as increase of temptation via modern exposure of skin, must be weighed on the scale.The Rebbetzin's Husbandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14977193945074906534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-19035777226814901792015-07-30T18:03:03.361-04:002015-07-30T18:03:03.361-04:00I agree re: your second paragraph. Re: your first ...I agree re: your second paragraph. Re: your first paragraph, though - I think there is value in preventing bad behaviour even if that does not rehabilitate the criminal.The Rebbetzin's Husbandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14977193945074906534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-12462558524356405872015-07-30T17:56:12.820-04:002015-07-30T17:56:12.820-04:00The ideas of being (1) humble enough to know that ...The ideas of being (1) humble enough to know that we can't know everything and (2) willing to submit my will to His Will are themselves more constructive than just "that's what we do".<br /><br />As the Rambam says in Shemoneh Peraqim: For some mitzvos the ideal is to align one's desires with the mitzvah, but for other mitzvos the ideal is to submit and say "I wish I could ..., but what can I do? My Maker told me not to."micha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7898782635470765614.post-78257419929521619502015-07-30T16:29:36.324-04:002015-07-30T16:29:36.324-04:00Micha, what if a mitzvah (not the one we're di...Micha, what if a mitzvah (not the one we're discussing) is a chok we don't understand? How could we distinguish among its uses?RAMnoreply@blogger.com